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Poster: august_wst Date: Apr 29, 2013 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

It seems a lot of people are concerned about the fact that no one in the band stopped to help Bobby when he "collapsed". There are some pretty solid reasons why:

1. First off, "The show must go on" is not just a saying. It really applies. Performers learn early on that the worst thing you can do is stop, for anything. By stopping you send a message to the audience that something is REALLY WRONG, and depending on the circumstances it can cause panic. That is why they have stage hands. Because under no circumstances do you stop the show, unless you really have NO CHOICE.

2. The fact is Bobby did not "collapse" in the classic sense of 'exhaustion or fainting'. Based on the video, he "fell down" in a way that you fall when you are really fucked up on something, or when you have some sort of vertigo. Either way he "drifted/leaned/stumbled" sideways until he ran out of balance and then he met the floor quickly after. And then he was back up… with some help, in less than 2 seconds (I timed it). I would imagine that the band members had barely registered what actually had happened before the stage hands where already there helping. These guys have to trust their stage hands, so I am sure they felt Bob was in good hands - especially since he was given a chair to continue playing on and not rushed off by the EMT's.

3. No one knows what went on backstage before the show. Don't you think it's possible they already knew Bobby was messed up on something and therefore weren't that surprised when he fell? Or it's even possible that Bobby has been having some "problems" as of late? What with this incident and the recent "Shut the F**K UP!" incident a few weeks ago, they may be something going on 'substance wise'. Maybe the band is just trying to get through the tour they have committed to, even though one of the members could use some "outside help". It's not like they don't have experience doing this for years with Garcia.

Obviously it's a big deal, and everyone is concerned about him. But as he is one of two names on the bill, he is an integral part of the band. But there are a lot more reason for why the band didn't stop, than why they should have. And it's not because they don't care. Just my 2 cents.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Apr 29, 2013 8:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

My 2-cents, is that, form personal experience, you can be concentrating on what you are doing, and fail to realize completely what is going on . Sometimes it takes a while to react, even to a serious event, that you should have dealt with that moment .
I have heard the booze stories from a friend of a friend of some of the Ratdog people (hows that for well documented proof !) .
This may be a blow it moment from Phil, or ... not . Most importantly I hope Bob is ok . As long s they want to play, for money or kicks, or both, fine . Their call .

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Poster: adks12020 Date: Apr 30, 2013 7:40am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Did anyone else read this? http://www.jambands.com/news/2013/04/26/john-kadlecik-posts-statement-on-bob-weir-s-collapse

John's comments....."1st reaction: holy shit, man down!

Then, I see several crew racing to help, going to be by his side faster than I can put my guitar down…

Next thought: what is Phil going to do? He’s playing on… Bobby had help at this point, so the next person in need of support was Phil…

Pretty f*d up moment… but Bobby wanted to finish the show!

Sometimes the rock n roll life is not all rainbows & fairy dust…"

...... multiple sources have reported that Kadlecik also posted the following response:

"Bob (weir) wanted to play… if Phil, the crew & management couldn’t talk him out of it, you think i have some magic power? This wasn’t overpartying, btw, it was accidentally taking an ambien instead of a painkiller… the shoulder injury is real, & the white guitar just showed up the last couple of shows because it only weighs 3 or 4 lbs"

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Apr 30, 2013 8:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

My 2 cents on the subject. I think it's just the culture. Wasn't it Bob Weir who basically pushed Vince Welnick off the tour bus when he OD'd? I think the bus was still running- pushed the guy out at the hospital drove off then threw him out of the band never to be heard from again. I don't remember the outcry for Weir being a jerk. I know it stinks when our hero's act like idiots and lack common sense but in both the Bobby case as well as Vince, I get the sense it's happened so many times in various situations that they became immune to it. Right or wrong.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Apr 30, 2013 8:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

I did not know zbout the BW, VW, bus thingy. A brief online tour confirms some folks are still very unhappy about that incident.

I think I'm going to turn in my visitors pass to the sausage factory. You can't bury your head in the sand about much without getting burned, but I just don't want to know about these things (and I don't have to). I like it much better when the space all of this inhabits in my brain is about music and such, otherwise it's just a drag.

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Poster: sambonk2 Date: Apr 30, 2013 8:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

bingo

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Poster: PhD9 Date: Apr 29, 2013 6:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

As I said on another thread, anybody who's worried about how Phil reacted instead of wondering WTF is wrong with Bobby is helping enable the problem. They absolutely did the right thing under trying circumstances.

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Poster: Purple Gel Date: Apr 29, 2013 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

If we've learned anything from the movies it is that if someone collapses onstage, the show stops. The only thing missing was the guy yelling "is there a doctor in the house?"

No-one suggests that they should stop the show. But really, would anyone even be talking about this if they had stopped the song, or even turned an 11 minute jam into a 3-minute one just this once? Or if they hadn't propped Bobby up in a chair and allowed him to stay there for almost 10 minutes looking like he was gonna pass out again? How could anyone in the crowd who was paying attention have enjoyed that?

I showed the video to a doctor friend of mine and she was appalled. She said that the way he was leaning and fell was exactly how a stroke might look. She also said that even if Bobby was drunk, there is no way that anyone could tell just by looking at him that this was not a stroke.

I have seen Furthur a dozen times or so. I absolutely appreciate the song lists. I've seen songs I never saw the Grateful Dead play. The shows are also a ton of fun because of the atmosphere and the Deadheads and seeing old friends and that's why I have returned.

If their policy is that if someone collapses on stage, we will act as if nothing happened because finishing a song is more important: then let me state right now that I will never attend another Furthur (or P&F) show again.

These guys have always talked as if this was more than just a band or profit making venture, that there was something deeper and that it was more like a family.
This is not how a "family" reacts, it's how a corporation reacts and I will not support an organization that won't even interrupt a song to make sure that their "brother" was ok.


This post was modified by Purple Gel on 2013-04-29 19:51:02

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Apr 29, 2013 7:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Exactly.

I'm pretty forgiving about human failings and "whoops" moments and screw-ups. So the reaction wasn't ideal at first; OK, they made a mistake. We don't know what the lead-up was, the context, the people involved, the emotions, etc. All that's a given.

But ... IF a senior citizen is drunk and/or screwed up on meds and falls down, how could that NOT also be a stroke? Hello?

And even if that doesn't cross anyone's mind, then still ... not shortening the jam?!? Um, yeah, it's great the UB has a nice jam section, but seriously, are we supposed to believe they're all "into the jam" while Bob is providing comic relief to the side? What is the jam, music or A Big Distraction?

And even if THAT was a bad decision on the moment that can be forgiven because, oh, gosh, I dunno, they were trying to keep the vibes good or whatever the heck Phil was thinking (and Phil was in the driver's seat), then the lack of a statement later ... I really cannot think of a single excuse for that, and sheesh, I'm pretty good at finding excuses. But it's just utterly corporate.

And bad corporate, too. Bad corporate unaware of the 21st century. With social media, you need to put something out or you look like crap. Phil's son (Grahame?) works in social media. I don't know what he does for Adobe, but presumably he's just one of many people around that band who ought to have at least a dim sense of how to handle this with a modicum of grace, savvy, a little humor and/or humility, and apparent respect for the fans.

You know. The old Jerry style.

Which they didn't do.

So they didn't react with good old hippie values, and they didn't react with 21st century social media savvy. Just stonewalled it. I guess Phil hugged Bob or something at AC afterwards and made a victory motion. That's nice, but it's not what a "family band" with a "family of fans" does in the 21st century.



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2013-04-30 02:52:14

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 29, 2013 2:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Hey PG, obviously we see this in similar light, nonetheless, I was glad you described having the same impression I have of them having presented this in a particular fashion over the yrs (eg, I have many friends that describe it just as you do: band mates happily doing what their creative spirits require, etc., etc.).

It is more and more looking like one of those sad "end of career" scenarios where the boxer/singer/sports hero is being manipulated and exploited by manager/spouse/relatives to milk every dime out of their "label/image/etc" before they die (or maybe as they do). Don't get me wrong, I imagine Bob is actually driving himself, but the motivation is sick rather than healthy, and that's no biggie at another level...just like me compulsively dragging my broken-down ass onto the bball court yr after yr until I couldn't, literally, and I have been paying for it ever since.

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Poster: august_wst Date: Apr 29, 2013 2:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Which is the end is more telling than anything. Why?

1. They is little reaction from the band, as if it is not that surprising.
2. There is no formal announcement by the band afterwards about what happened, which you know they would do if there was a real health scare going on.
3. That we all have way too much time on our hands to still be talking about it! :-)

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Poster: user unknown Date: Apr 30, 2013 5:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

"1. There is little reaction from the band, as if it is not that surprising."
Either not surprising, or they realize that crew members are already with Bobby. If the situation had been deemed serious by those attending to the "man down", do you really think anyone would've continued playing? I'd like to think not.

"2. There is no formal announcement by the band afterwards about what happened, which you know they would do if there was a real health scare going on."
You'd think it would be so, but Bobby's behavior is becoming more a pattern that an isolated incident. Maybe there are issues that need to be addressed privately, but at least let the fans know something is going on. Didn't the band formerly refer to fans as members of the "Grateful Dead Family"?

"3. That we all have way too much time on our hands to still be talking about it!"
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

This post was modified by user unknown on 2013-04-30 12:59:37

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Poster: user unknown Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Bob played Saturday night in AC and handled it quite a bit better, although he still looked a bit spacey to me. And he isn't playing the "phantom" 3 pound white guitar John talked about. At the end of the show, he gets some love from both Phil and John.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR5hMTVKZsw

Of course, he wasn't playing that white guitar the night he fell either. He did play it both night prior to his fall. Does that sound sketchy to anyone but me?

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Apr 29, 2013 12:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

I am willing to bet that the band and crew know more about this than I, and when I fall down I have a measure of privacy so I won't judge.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Apr 29, 2013 10:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

The way that he lilted to his left and went down is precisely what you would see in a stroke. Maybe you don't stop the show, but you show awareness and concern. Phil sure didn't.

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Neither did John Kadick ( or whatever his name is ) who apparently is more concerned about his dream job than doing the right thing. Hey I'm not going to claim I have any backstage knowledge of the why's. I know Bob is said to drink a lot of scotch, could be taking other stuff, or like was just mentioned could be a vertigo thing. Lots of things can cause this, heck even a really bad ear infection. Regardless, to just effing sidestep him is ridiculous. I have news for them, what they are doing isn't as important as they think it is. Not only that but didn't the fans get sort of screwed in the sense that they paid full price and one of the main players with half the songs go on to not play most of the second half of the show? If you ask me Deadheads are apologists for everything the f*cking band ever did or does now.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

I guess it must be a POV thing. Looked to me like JK was basically pushed out of the way when Bob fell into his leg, and by the time John regained his balance the crew was with Bob. I have to think that Phil had an idea what was going on and knew that the crew had things covered. I can't believe Phil would've continued if those attending to Bob had indicated the situation was serious.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Hey J--yeah, I am feeling a lot of "I told you so" in the sense of this just no longer has the feel of "I am so happy doing what I love" or whatever the apologists trot out for "why they MUST do what they do" (even if we think it sounds like crap).

This just shows that they are leading (not so) quiet lives of desperation just like the rest of humanity...IE, Bob is doing "it" for bucks, and "it" consists of milking the geezer circuit cause we sound as good as necessary whether I am a) propped up; b) falling sideways; c) not even on stage; or d) all of the above....

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Poster: august_wst Date: Apr 29, 2013 10:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Agreed, but I refer you to point 3 in that case

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

I'm just saying that I'd be freaked if I were standing next to Bob. The "it's the crew's" job paradigm is not an excuse for being musician over being a human. I've seen other video of musicians falling down or off the stage, but never anything as seemingly apathetic as this. Now, mind you, we weren't there. Maybe they did know he was too high and the "serves him right" attitude might have kicked in. Or he could have hit the floor dead. When that's your buddy of 50 years, I'd expect to see a reaction.

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Poster: ducats Date: Apr 29, 2013 3:57pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

it's one of the funniest things i've seen in a long time. there's my reaction - and its 50/50 that's Phil's reaction as well

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Poster: Monte B Cowboy Date: Apr 30, 2013 5:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Here's Jerry properly interrupting the band and stopping the show in the middle of a tune in front of thousands of people and being videotaped: "Wait a minute, this is all fucked up. We're in the wrong key!"

Above is the "surprise ending" Thomas Lofstrom was referring to in The Festival Tapes 1.0: The Grateful Dead & Friends at Telluride, Colorado - Aug 15 / 16, 1987

cue it up to 2:02:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4xXMmhjG6Q

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Poster: august_wst Date: Apr 29, 2013 2:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

There is a reaction. You see Phil look over around the same time the crew is picking Bob up. And Bob is getting up with them. It doesn't make them dicks, but if you as determined to see them as such, so be it. I think you are reading it a little too black and white is all.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Apr 30, 2013 5:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

A I said, I wasn't there. Perhaps they knew he was blitzed and the fall was inevitable. I don't know. None of us do. Bottom line, though, is that they are getting old and nine days in a row is pushing it. But, sure, maybe you had to be there, and, sure, I really have no business speculating. I do hope he's okay all around.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Apr 30, 2013 5:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

A I said, I wasn't there. Perhaps they knew he was blitzed and the fall was inevitable. I don't know. None of us do. Bottom line, though, is that they are getting old and nine days in a row is pushing it. But, sure, maybe you had to be there, and, sure, I really have no business speculating. I do hope he's okay all around.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Gotcha, AW; but, this is precisely why I made a big deal out of it: to me, "show must go on!" issues aside (actually, I've been at lots of shows that were stopped, briefly, sometimes completely, for FAR less...really; DEAD shows sometimes stopped for a drug or smoke break, and Eric Clapton stopped playing once in CREAM just to see what happened...har, har), I think the only conclusion IS # 3 had to have happened...ie, the only explanation for the lack of response isn't that Phil's a heartless bastard, or has no peripheral vision or complete hearing loss, but rather, Phil's REALLY pissed off, and just said "screw it!" or some such...

That's my take, anyhooo...And yeah, Bob's got some problems, that's for sure; hope he feels better, cause right now, he's not v happy, it seems to me. I am one exceptionally cranky ahole myself, but that's cause I got GoP all over my ass on this HtoH crap, and 13 doctor's appts this week, and...and...hmmm, forgot...

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 29, 2013 11:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

The last thing you want is GoP all over your ass. Pretty soon they'd be dragging you offstage too.

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Poster: Jacky Hughes Date: Apr 30, 2013 4:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

Whenever you are in need of a double entendre, you can always rely on SomeDarkHollow to Give You One.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Apr 30, 2013 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ashes to Ashes - Bob fall down

I do what I can to give 'til it hurts.